Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Not Quite-There and Back Again:
Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

The administrative structures, of which we are all painfully familiar, have substituted legitimacy for enchantment. It's doubtful that anyone today is still holding out for the next cast of managers. Between the  "At-Least-He's-Not-the-Other-Guy" arguments of the heart-broken Obama voters and Bloomberg's abysmal response to Hurricane Sandy, it is an undeniable fact that the only thing keeping it all together is the tendency of systems to simply linger on.

Today, nearly 200 people walked out of class and filled the grassy "Quad" in front of the Emory University Administration Building. After a half hour of speeches from the organizers of the event, a move was made to storm the building and occupy the 4th floor. Upon entering, it became evident that a small group of student leaders had committed themselves to acting as representatives in hopes of dialoguing with the school president. They manipulated crowd dynamics in order  to ensure all remained according to their script... This was all unsurprising. The crowd's unwillingness to accept this did surprise us. Would-be occupants slowly filtered out; some complained that the occupation wasn't about four or five people, while others pointed out the inability of the university to acquiesce to demands. Those that stayed in the hall made small talk, and brewed the president's coffee.

Amongst the one's who weren't already "in" on the decision-making there was a general feeling that this was not at all what we wanted. Some of us had dreamed of dramatic university occupations going on for days. Now we suddenly found ourselves in a university occupation, and we were completely  unprepared. While many were quietly grumbling  about the top heavy occupation  organization, others were simply shuffling through their textbooks in preparation or exams and finals, completely unchanged by the circumstances. Anarchists failed to alter the situation enough to qualitatively change the demeanor of the occupation.


The gross deployment of arguments intended to deligitimize the agency of nonstudents was present both inside the occupation and from the administrative staff. Between the begging on behalf of "those most affected," and the cynical presumption of authority by the grad students, some used the occupation as another maneuver in a years-long grab for power and recognition. What is lost in all of this is the recognizition that this isn't a struggle over the education of those privileged enough to gain access to Emory University in the first place. This is a struggle between an entrenched capitalist aristocracy and those who are affected by their decisions, living in a world designed by specialists. The occupation is a moment of disconnection, when the nodes of control and citizen-production begin breaking down. As one administrator put it "We can't 'do business' while you're out here."

The incessant chatter about politics and legitimacy matters little.
What is important is to act decisively.

We need to understand that a conflict is necessary, and a break with the managerial perspective of the administration must be made before we can pursue what we actually want. We can't get lost in the politics of "building the movement" - which has basically been the justification for lying to your peers so they think you're more moderate than you are.

When we act like each action exists only for itself, we consign ourselves to one of two dismal outcomes: the action fails, and we are demoralized, or we succeed and return to our complacency, vindicated in our play-acting at negation or, worse, "people's power." Both of these are poison. We don't seek to reverse the cuts, or to sit back and say "I told you so" when all of this is over and the cuts remain. We want to show that it doesn't really matter, because the same logic that governs the university governs our whole society.

From here on out, there is only one interesting discussion: how are we going to create an event that never ends. An occupation with no demands or surrender, a walk out that never returns; essentially: a revolt that experiences itself as an autonomous force capable of never returning to the normal situation. A revolt that doesn't stop spreading.

A clique of "student leaders", manufactured  the consent of the occupation and went to meet with President Wagner to negotiate. In the hallway more and more of the crowd began drifting away. This is unsurprising. After all they had been reduced to spectators in their own occupation. The specialists who had assumed the only legitimate agency to act entered some closed doors with the  president after posing for pictures with the local press. Most of those still lingering on after the hours long meeting voted to take the offer from the administration: a promise to meet again with 11 people some time in the future.

Think of another scenario: 200 people storm the building in order to get organized. Circles form, large and small, to facilitate the production and circulation of text, the construction and maintanence of barricades and banners - or else, the coordination of a phone-blast to invite everyone to the party. The copy machines are reappropriated and so is the PA system. Dozens begin dancing to the newest Rihanna while others toss empty champagne bottles from the 4th story windows at campus security. When the administration tries to reason with the crowd, they are shushed and scoffed at - we are plotting a move to take over another building and we are giving directions to our friends with pick-up trucks.

If events like these never unravel, it's not because we have confronted the limits of possibility but, to be cliche, because we lack the imaginative focus to make these ideas become reality. Begin by getting organized now, with your co-workers, your roommates, your family, your neighbors, your bandmates, your classmates or whomever. Create the necessary material relationships to make it happen, and to make it last. Don't wait for the others, we will find you. As soon as you can, get started.


The following is the text from a leaflet distributed during the walkout/occupation. The
following warnings turned out to be a little more insightful than we had hoped.

"WE'LL SHOW YOU A CRISIS:
SOME IDEAS FOR MAKING SURE THIS BREAK-UP LASTS FOREVER

We have found each other in a position of impending dislocation, facing a breakdown of our relationship with the university,our jobs,the economy. Five years into the crisis, we have learned a few things about what meaningful response looks like...

i. In late 2009/early 2010, university occupations broke out in New York, in California, and elsewhere.  The resistance exploded into a series of small riots inside barricaded buildings under the slogan "demand nothing, occupy everything." The energy, however, remained localized and was eventually co-opted by student politicians.

ii. In Wisconsin, a year later, legislation was proposed to ban collective bargaining. Thousands of people flooded the capitol building in an indefinite occupation. The movement, however, was always trapped in the electoral narrative which ultimately sapped energy into an unsuccessful re-call vote.

iii. Finally, last September, parks and plazas all over the country were seized by people in the "Occupy" movement as an attempt to create material relations capable of  escalating a social reaction to financial precarity. Due to a number of factors -  including a foolish commitment to nonviolence toward police and the eventual dove-tailing  with less relatable single-issue campaigns - the movement waned.

Each of these openings have taught us something new. Namely, we can no longer  organize successful social responses from our positions inside of capitalism; we must refuse collaboration or mediation with the powerful and their police; it is easier to invoke a total break than to even win partial demands for inclusion into the failing economy.

In the global markets, it is easier to outsource or to mechanize labor than to give in to our pitiful demands. Our counter-culturual and "alternative" innovations have been recuperated by the new generation of information technologies and "green" capitalism.

The only thing holding us together is the painful return of The Outside.
This return is not our own, but it holds many opportunities.

The response to this general dislocation is to disrupt and attack the economic and political institutions which, for us, are becoming just out of reach.

To actually "Walk-out" is to do so much more than simply move a body out of the classroom.

It is a recognizing that the democratic community of the university is  an illusion. It is a rejection of the role of the student, the quiet hard-worker who sacrifices their young years in order to be better off in the future-a future that no longer exists. With the rapidly detoriating climate, and increasing precarity  of capital ,we can't expect any of the jobs we are promised to actually exist- not that we want them anyway.

SO WHAT NOW? 5 IDEAS FOR AVOIDING DISAPPOINTMENT

DESTROY CENTRALIZATION//DEVELOP SELF-ORGANIZATION
Currently, a political script is being crafted about what these cuts mean and about what this walk out means in relation to a broader strategy. In order for you to get the most out of this energy, you must  develop autonomous self-organization, maybe with just a few friends, maybe with strangers.The point is to not just accept the structures  that currently exist to oppose these cuts, but to use them however  you can while developing new methods, forms, and ideas to make up for where the existing iniatitives leave you feeling incomplete.

BEWARE OF MOVEMENT MANAGERS AND LEADERS
Sometimes, people come along who already have everything planned out. When people seem to have all of the right answers with the perfect strategy that everyone should obey, they are often ignoring, hiding, or forgetting some important tensions. They may even claim a false humility - in fact this is  likely in the post-Occupy era where hierarchy has largely been discredited. Those who always know what to do next are more than likely following a script. In order for this momentum to move forward, it must break the entire theater of student life, including its imposed roles and convoluted "movement leaders."

CRAFT NARRATIVES THAT JUSTIFY REVOLT//PERMIT DIVERSE PARTICIPATION
We can hear it already. Appeals are often casually made to the "Emory Community", on behalf of the "students, faculty, and staff." The hidden assumption is that in this "community", there lies the "most affected" who are the "legitimate" actors of a social response to cuts and austerity. However, if we rely solely on such discourses, we may end up foregrounding isolation and detachment from a broader base of potential-accomplices. By appealing to each other in the language of our roles, we may be lodging ourselves deeper into the networks of domination we are trying to oppose. Furthermore, if we appeal only to students and staff, we will find ourselveswith less allies year after year as the cuts and layoffs keep rolling in.

In other words: todays students are next years drop-outs. Let's keep space open for participation and agency from all sectors of society. Who, after all, is more legitimate to oppose fee hikes and budget cuts than those who can no longer afford to attend classes in the first place? Oppose the demonization of the "outside agitator" whenever you hear it.

DON'T JUST PANDER TO THE MEDIA
For those who "only that which appears in the media exists" real action takes a backset to the maintanence of the the media image. The goal of this image management is never to attack any institution of domination, but to affect public opinion and stay trapped in an endless  cycle of "building the movement." The media isn't an objective institution, who will work alongside us if our cause is just.  They will report on things in their own interests, to boost ratings, please parent companies, and to  maintain the illusion of social peace. The idea of "looking good for the media" is often used in an attempt to discipline and control anyone who does anything that could be seen as controversial, however slight. This is just another way in which movement managers and leaders attempt to control what happens, to ensure only their idea is heard. Opposing the mass media doesn't mean we should try to keep our story to ourselves. Creating your own analysis of what is happening allows everyone to record their story as they see fit.


GET GOING!
It's unclear if this walkout will lead to anything else. It's common for well-intentioned activists, in their tendency to delay, to spend months building up to a big event with no social traction, with no follow up.


What happens today, and tomorrow, is up to you and those close to you.


"People are convinced to act not through endless talk, but when they see that
others are willing to take risks. It is only when those who have little to lose actually do
something that those who have a lot to lose can join them."

- some former occupiers

300

 

 

Comments

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

damn these comments...

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Feed it to an oogle.

 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

11:14pm

Then... We must eat the hearts of every authoritarian communist.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

6:22pm

Lenin lives on in the heart of every authoritarian communist.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Yall, The Hobbit comes out tonight.

I'm fuckin STOKED!

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Oh God. I can't imagine the shit that's gonna come down on atlanta a's for these comments when the communists see them.

Anarchists for your safety please seek shelter.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Leninism sucks.

Kasama is the new RCP. 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

9:53 am

You're doing it right.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Threads with over 50 comments are too much for me. DGAF about this article or these comments anymore. 

YOLO - and Im not trying to spend it on indymedia

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

7:17 pm

Same anon you were responding to here.

Do not assume to know who you are responding to on an anonymous thread.

Do not assume to know what my goals are or what activity I've participated in. (More cop like behavior) 

No you have not asked me anything several times as that comment was the first commented I'd left on this thread.  In fact I'm probably not even anyone you would associate with those you call "bad anarchists"

(fuck you anyway)

Don't bother responding with questions though as I feel you are far to fucking stupid, delusional, and cop like for me to see any value in giving you the time of day.

Don't waste your time. My intent was to communicate with other anarchists and point to something that ive seen happening alot lately (happened again right after i made this post) but it was not posted to give you any kind of effort. 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

7:29

What you posted from Kasama just says that Communists are failing not because of Leninism but because they haven't understood Leninism.

So what's the point of your comment.  I agree that communist in Atlanta are honestly new to exploring Leninism and probably aren't good at defending it. I think though that we are studying it. It says that we have failed but not our comrade Lenin.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

7:43-

Some of the areas 'anarchists' are very set on sabotaging organized resistance. They have admitted it on more than one occasion.

My disagreement is that some of the areas 'anarchists' spend so much attacking people doing SOMETHING that they're not focusing any of their time on people doing NOTHING.

Regardless of whether you think the 'spineless liberal' tactics are effective, at least they are doing SOMETHING. Even the ones who are trying to reform or work within the government to change it are doing SOMETHING. Even the ideologically non-violent liberals are doing SOMETHING.

So why is it the ideology of some of the 'anarchists' in Atlanta to spend so much of their time attacking those people? Why not focus on the other 200 thousand people in the city who celebrate capitalism and oppression?

The activist community in Atlanta is very small. Why would anyone who supports resisting oppression spend so much of their time attacking the scant number of activists we have?

I have spent WAY more of my time and energy trying to figure out just why the fuck people would spend so much time trying to dismantle and disrupt organized resistance. If you don't like the way it's handled with 'movement managers' or whatever, offer a better alternative. If you can't, then why is the solution to just attack what few options we have?

I just don't understand. While they attack and attempt to sabotage any budding resistance, the people who are in power get stronger and bigger and more violent. How can you STILL think that is acceptable after all of this time?

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

you think 'movement managers' are trying to 'split' anarchists? That's not what's going on. People are trying to organize against an oppressive government, and your intention seems to be to sabotage any type of resistance that begins to form


And that's your first mistake. You see it as a choice between organized resistance and the intent to sabotage. No one would sabotage actual resistance. An anarchist might see your version of "organization" as not resisting at all. You have different criteria for what counts as resistance.

You're perfectly right to come up with your own idea of resistance, but you should at least try to percievet what your disagreement is. You don't disagree that organized resistance is good. You disagree about the point where organization becomes oppressive.

Try to step outside of your own head a bit rather than fabricating intentions for other people. You'll be a better person, and a better organizer.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Well, since it seems popular to vomit kasama articles all over the place these days, I really liked this one

http://kasamaproject.org/2008/03/02/rescuing-lenin-from-the-leninists/

Unlike the comrades here who like to cover up their own failures by manipulating The Failure of Anarchism, the author of this peice makes a simple, honest point: Leninists don't hold a candle to Lenin.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

lol you think 'movement managers' are trying to 'split' anarchists? That's not what's going on. People are trying to organize against an oppressive government, and your intention seems to be to sabotage any type of resistance that begins to form. 

Here's an honest question I have for you that I've posed several times and you avoid answering.

Why have you made it your goals to disrupt any type of organized resistance?

I hate to be 'that guy' but if you really just want to live chaos without government control, why don't you move to a place that actually has less or no government (like somalia?) I'm not part of the 'love it or leave it' crowd, but that's a serious question. There are places on this planet that have no government. Go there. Stop fucking up resistance here because things are only getting worse and you're making it harder for us. You're just as bad as the capitalists.

We are fighting an oppressive and growing regime here in America. The ONLY way to fight it is by organizing. I understand that you are going to do 'whatever you want to do' but I don't see why you've made it your intention to sabotage any type of organized movement in America.

You will NEVER convince me that the folks who run Crimethinc (believe it or not, they have 'movement managers' or whatever you want to call them too) are feds, but that's just my opinion.

So what is the inspiration to sabotaging organized resistance? Why don't you emmigrate to another country that seems more complimentary to your lifestyle? Are you really just that foolish, or is there some other hidden motivation to this?

And for fucks sake, if you're so sociopathic that you just want to do whatever you want without any consideration for other people, go do it at some bourgeois social club or football game or American Idol show or something. Stop doing it to people who are fighting oppression.

 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

3:23pm:  

More "good anarchist / bad anarchist"?
Nice try you bag of wet shit.  Go play cop some place else.  

That little magic trick of legitimacy (aimed at dividing anarchists along a sharp line - between those who for whatever reasons might act in line with YOUR program and those who for whatever reasons don't) might work on the left and their "adherents" but there is no room what so ever for that garbage in the anarchist milieu.


To the Atlanta Ⓐs:  I love y'all for being the powerful destabilizing force that you are and for refusing to be anything other than wild!   I hate y'all for just as many reasons.  Lets keep doing what we do and disagree when we disagree but be weary of forces outside our milieu intentionally trying to stick a wedge in whatever it is we are doing.

I strongly doubt that any of us will fall for the petty divisive tricks currently being employed by movement management and their liberal lackeys on this thread (and in general right now) but we need to be hip to what is happening and realize that some people are fucking dumb enough to try it.  
I'm confident in most of my comrades to know that none of us are the type who would ever fall for this kind of laughable cheap lowbrow deception.  It is however important enough to express the seriousness of the effects that the "good anarchist / bad anarchist" narrative has on our friends and comrades and the danger it puts some of our friends in.


- We saw it being employed on some movement manager's Facebook wall,

- We read it in almost every furious liberal's indymedia lecture/comments left on every article posted by an anarchist. (comments most of us only read for a good laugh)

- The liberal groups who play nice with "good anarchists" while hating on the "bad" ones and the "good anarchists" who play along.

- The "organizer" who asks those he chooses to peg as "good" anarchists to name names and snitch on other anarchists, monitor and keep tabs on other anarchists, or to carry some message meant to impart movement discipline onto other anarchists.  

- The deceptive tactics of the leninists who very intentionally, methodically, and dishonestly play smiles and grins with a select few left/social anarchists or those they can get to do things for them, all the while demonizing them as often as possible.

these things illustrate a game I strongly recommend we not play into….  We have to be conscious of the fact that this is an intentional and obvious attempt to split anarchists away from their tendency and force an adherence to programs and political lines.  It's an attempt to divide us and sweep up the leftovers as new recruits.  Most importantly (yet also most sinister), it is an attempt to isolate those who destabilize the management and programatism of struggle so as to be targeted.


Do not allow those who have reduced themselves to politics, a line, or a program to divide us.  Do not allow our struggles or our activity to be recuperated by the language of legitimacy while allowing others just like us to be vilified and isolated by that very same language.  Isolation is dangerous for anarchists.  Lets not forget that those these degenerate boot lickers are pinning as the "bad anarchists" are often those who have taken bigger risks and rocked the boat the hardest.  Allowing these people to be vilified means allowing these people to be isolated and targeted.  This does our tendency nothing but a disservice.
Those of you who have been granted the status of "good anarchists" by the left establishment or the activist milieu might notice a slight privileging within the context of these social movements compared to those of us who occupy the fictitious category of "bad" anarchist.  
It's up to us to reject these devisions. 
We debate, we argue, we fracture - but these things make us stronger when we refuse to accept these imposed devisions and if we continue to practice a diversity of tactics and trajectories.
  Any "good anarchist" who plays into the good vs bad anarchist dichotomy is no comrade of ours.  In fact, they're no anarchist to begin with.

Yes...  I acknowledge that some of the comments below might have been left by trolls (maybe even anarchists them selves posting for lolz) however, there are far more examples I could point to in the real world that illustrates this divisive tactic being employed than in this single thread.

DON'T PLAY THEIR FUCKING GAME!

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

What's funny is I can't even tell if Lenin troll is real or not...

 

 

because most leninists REALLY are THAT stupid.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

12:58

The irony of your comment is that this piece is just as irrelevant as the other article. Smashing the Orderly party in name and content is obviously the "mental" creation of a 4 year old. Not only is the piece infantile and reactionary, it also misrepresents the history and legacy of the great revolutionary hero, Lenin.

To the other infantile anarchist on this thread, please control your temper tantrums, Angst and strong emotions are not becoming of revolutionaries, though I shudder at the thought of referring to you in any positive sense. 

Carry on comrades! Keep up the good work and keep these children in line. 

To be more concrete in addition to the Historical Failures of Anarchism I highly recommend a reading:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch04.htm - Left-wing Communism an infantile disorder -  Comrade Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1906/12/x01.htm - Anarchism or Socialism? - Comrade Stalin

These three works should be good to help to correct the effects of your bourgeois upbring and reactionary theory.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Wow, this got more comments than Smashing the Orderly Party.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

From The Failure of Anarchism

"It is nothing short of a complete abdication of one of the most basic responsibilities of revolutionaries: the responsibility to subject the defeats and failures of the movement to the most thoroughgoing critical scrutiny.

Instead it takes a historical experience that ended in a crushing defeat, makes excuses for that defeat and offers the faithful reassuring platitudes that, all evidence to the contrary, the one true path of anarchism is vindicated by the experience.

When anarchists encounter this sort of thing in other ideologies they never fail to tear it to shreds."


Interesting. The pamphlet's thesis is an accusation of hypocrisy. Kind of weird to manipulate the paper to avoid self-critique when the point of the paper is about self-critique, but whatever. I guess we can all be hypocrites together.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Leninists, please chug a glass of bleach and take a nap.  You're better for everyone when youre dead.  Yall DO care about the "greater good" right?


Anarchists are crazy. Everyone gets mad about Kronstadt but this is why they had to do it. Anarchists deserve it. They all deserved it.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Simply put there are good anarchist and bad anarchist. I feel no need to defend this further. You know who the good ones are (people actually talk to them and hang out with them). You all just have to hang out with each other cuz no one else wants to be around you.

What successes have anarchists had? Name one!

Good Anarchists acknowledge their failures and then join us.

http://kasamaproject.org/2009/07/20/new-kasama-pamphlet-the-historical-f...

There is literally a whole pamphlet on how shitty anarchism is. This seriously changed my life.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

10:58


"Fulfil your duty with greater zeal, and talk less about 'increasing the activity of the masses of the workers'! We are far more active than you think, and we are quite able to support, by open street fighting, demands that do not promise any 'palpable results' whatever! You cannot 'increase' our activity, because you yourselves are not sufficiently active. Be less subservient to spontaneity, and think more about increasing your own activity, gentlemen!"

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

10:03


Who is distorting history here? If the previous socialist states had succeeded, we wouldn't even be talking about this right now. For upholding a tradition that's supposed to be about science and marking good judgments about history, you don't seem to appreciate facts very much.

Do you want to reproduce the mistakes of these "successes" or do you want communism? Do you care about justifying your ideology to people or do you care about doing something "actually effective"? See? Anyone can appeal to efficacy. Kind of dumb, isn't it?

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Liberals fuck off.  We're all gonna laugh at you anyway and nothing you say will ever be anything but a good laugh. (Just like everyone else who is not you laughs at you. Hey we're only human and a good punch line is a good punch line)

Leninists, please chug a glass of bleach and take a nap.  You're better for everyone when youre dead.  Yall DO care about the "greater good" right?

Anarchists. Please read all of the comments below and note: YOU'RE DOING IT RIGHT.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

"Good Anarchist / bad anarchist"

Laughable.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Also I want to add on that it's not all anarchists. It is just a few immature children some of the more mature anarchists get it and they know who they are. 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

comrade 10:03 is right

Anarchists in Atlanta are scum. They are children. I maintain that the reason they act this way is because of their refusal to take anything seriously. They think everything is a game.

This is life or death and some of us get that. it is a sacrifice. it is our job. The working class needs to be organized or else we will never see a revolution. Anarchists are so hung up on SMASHING THE STATE that they dont realize how flawed that plan is.

If you would get a job you would understand the struggles of the working class. You all just run around screaming Stop Oppressing ME! What oppresion do  white priveleged college kids enjoy living off of mommy and daddys money have to face?.

We will continue to fight, and study and better grasp marx, lenin, and mao so that we can do something to actually make this world better. when the revolution comes you will see. our faces will be everywhere and people will adore us for the work we have done. and they will turn you over for your infantile reactionary behaviour. 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

In rough draft form by Bilbo Baggins.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

12:14

Anarchists in Atlanta consistently attempt to destroy all communist formations. Look at the shit that gets posted on here. It's all attacks and red baiting. 

Those attempts were not failures or half attempts. Seriously stop trying to distort history to fit your fucked up narrative.

Anarchism has failed and will continue to fail. We have the organization. We have the skill. We have the heart. Ya'll are all just immature bored little children who want to run around and break shit.

The revolution will never be realised if we cant grow up and organize ourselves. You need to look forward to how the party can be formed and how we can really win the revolution. That is going to take sacrificing our lives, friends, and souls for the sake of the revolution.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

1:46am

IGTT: 0.05 / 10

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

oh man, THEY sure are counter-revolutionary! They just don't want to protest the way we plan to, or don't plan to, ya' know, whatever. BTW, did I mention how much nihilists suck? The key is to manage chaos in an un-managerial way as to such wherefore has to gone without is-ness. T'is truely the greatness of leaderlessnesship minus autonomy but also minus "community" which is also a fiction of selves.


Can't you SEE sheeple? Rise up! Throw off your shackles of ignorance and end the fed yesterday! For a tomorrow with no future we gratefully dig our enemies graves. 911 truth was an inside job and only now are our unborn children suffering the consequences! Fuck Monsanto and channel 2!

long live @narchy and may the breath of the last NGO staffer be smothered by the asses of a thousand drag queens!

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

oh man, THEY sure are counter-revolutionary! They just don't want to protest the way we plan to, or don't plan to, ya' know, whatever. BTW, did I mention how much nihilists suck? The key is to manage chaos in an un-managerial way as to such wherefore has to gone without is-ness. T'is truely the greatness of leaderlessnesship minus autonomy but also minus "community" which is also a fiction of selves.


Can't you SEE sheeple? Rise up! Throw off your shackles of ignorance and end the fed yesterday! For a tomorrow with no future we gratefully dig our enemies graves. 911 truth was an inside job and only now are our unborn children suffering the consequences! Fuck Monsanto and channel 2!

long live @narchy and may the breath of the last NGO staffer be smothered by the asses of a thousand drag queens!

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

11:26

I will never shit on some communist group's attempt to do the best they can with what they have during their struggle against the state. If you are materially in a position to demolish the oppressor then you do so, consequences be damned. I will also not pretend that any of these attempts have led to communism. I will also not console myself with half measures and failed attempts.

I am not interested in doing therapy to make people feel better about the soviet union. You can't talk about what is and is not "effective" when we are still trying to figure that out. You sound like an 80's realkpolitik schill when you do that. We're dealing with the most massive problem in literally all of history, and you don't have any better answers than anyone else. At least appreciate the problem.

The real problem here is an ideological one, where you ignore the objective failure of these attempts in order to marginalize some people, to gain credibility, in order to just ignore the fucking struggles going on in your area, assuring yourself that you're at least doing something "effective." One difference between greece, venezuala (and so on) and "other countries like the United States" is that none of those other countries are the oppressive power in the world. Lenin's entire damn idea was unheard of; why not think of something simillarly unheard of?

 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

well if you look at south america you can see the potential it has. those countries have been able to have socialism and things are so much better now for them.

if we can take over those states and give power to the masses then obviously the model could work. if you look at greece the communist party there, SYRIZA, has been able to get a lot of votes. they have the potential to take over the state.

this can be done. as disillusioned as people are here it is only a matter of time before communist cadre have to start seizing power on our local levels so we can take over the start and get all power. for the people of course.

you dont have a strategy that works. there is no historical example of anarchism even beng remotely succesful. communists overthrew the czar and ran the ussr for decades. what have you accomplished?

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

9:21


You explain the reasons for its failure and then denied it being a failure. That's kinda weird.


If it failed because you can't have communism in one country, then why repeat the method that led to a socialist state in one country? Lenin was in the best possible position to succeed and he failed. He abandoned his goals, forced or not. Then he got recuperated and discredited.


A world-wide, transitioning socialist state seems even less plausible now than then, but you think that without meddling anarchists and imperialism that you could succeed? That's not worthy of Lenin.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

at 7:23 -

 I know that some people like to deny the successes of the USSR but let's be real with ourselves about one fact. you can not have socialism/communism in one country. that is why things "failed". Lenin was able to create something great in Russia but outside forces keep it from being succesful (that and instigating anarchist seeking to mess up revolutionary organizing)

The USSR was not a failure in that sense. Also, if you look at places like Greece, India, and South America you can see how communists are sucessfully organizing in a way that anarchist have been unable to. dont attempt to water down the successes of communist because anarchist cant get shit done.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

7:00


Why do you think that your methods are more "effective" than anyone elses when there are exactly zero methods that have ever created a communist society? Are you not just grasping at your own, hackneyed, straws like everyone else?

Our chances of success, no matter what we do, are approximately zero. How can you pretend to know what will actually organize people beyond trade-union level activity? We are a community that has never succeeded in the history of the world, not even one time. Anarchists at least seem to be honest about this.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

5:13

You are saying that people coming out with the intention of getting other people arrested is NOT a subtle form of rape? I beg to differ.

The only people who go to events with the intention of getting other people arrested are those who want to make a statement about nonviolent resistance. Like getting a quorum of defenseless people together to sit in a circle. Other people get arrested by mistake. Civil disobedients get arrested by intention.

I'm glad that you see the problems with this.

Oh, wait.

A bunch of non-violent liberals holding hands in a park and getting arrested was planned. Everyone involved knew what they were in for. They had agreed on it early on.

Except we didn't all agree on it. There was bedlam and confusion for hours with no real agreement of what to do. An arrest circle was the only model of resistance available to us, which, as you point out, is an old, antiquated, and ineffective model of resistance.

The amount of times you contradict your own position baffles me. Your concept of consent is the most backwards and fucked up I've encountered. It doesn't even rise to the level of liberalism.

Go to bed.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

d- 

you really should not be so upset. the anarchists act this way all the time. they wont stop. they are childish and immature. they even encourage it and embrace it. most of them are deluded by crimethinc and ahdere to their intellectually lazy and romantic views of revolution and insurrection. post left anarchism is for middle class white men who have never had to suffer from anything

real revolutionaries study and work. real revolutionaries look around them and realize if its all straight white men that somethings wrong. you all will never have anyone new on your side. you do not know how to appeal to the masses you just alienate them with your white macho bullshit.

dont you realize that? dont you know that no black people or women will ever join you if you just think that fighting cops and window smashing will work. you have to organize. you have to doorknock. you have to make others see your point of view. 

you have to read and study something legitimate not read crimethinc and zines by no name authors. 

i used to think these methods of organizing were effective but i grew up and so should you. 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

@ 4:42

 

IGTT 9.5/10

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

The cool thing about the internet is that it abstracts everything.  Since there's nothing actually here, it lets us make up whatever we want, and talk about that as though it's real.  It's like a big imagination sandbox!  We can build whatever we want and play in it.

But sometimes, people build awful, stupid stuff on the internet.  And even though we know it's not real, they somehow entice us into playing in their bizarro creation and acting like it's real.  Then we get really pissed off, because bizarro land sucks and doesn't make any damn sense.  We think maybe if we argue about it enough, it'll stop sucking...but somehow it never does, because we're still playing in someone else's awful creation.

This is the internet!  We can do anything!  Let's have fun.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

What the fuck is wrong withyou? Why do u think people try to get people arrested? How can revise history like this. The fact is the anarchist actions almost never result in arrest. Almost never. Evern in the rare circumstances of frontal conflict with police, still ppl almost never get arrested. Ppl have almost always gotten away with all crimes in history and that will always be true.

You are dogmatic, hateful, insensitive, and a liar. Youve created a myth of the anarcho nihilist who goes around breaking shit and setting people up. its not true!

why do u live in a delusion world where all activity requires consent? How do u not recognize that the people u are hating on have always been involved with occupy and are involved with so many different projects? Literally, you arr a fucking worthless naysayer who desperately wants everyone to act like you.  fuck you dee. Im glad you stay inside all day - keep it up please.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

So let me get this straight-

1) You are saying that people coming out with the intention of getting other people arrested is NOT a subtle form of rape? I beg to differ.

2) Regardless of whether the cops are right or wrong in arresting us (they're wrong) the people who consistently do this KNOW that it's going to happen. You don't poke a bear with a stick and expect it not to react. Whether it's justified or not (it's not) you know by now (or you should) what's going to happen when you get in their faces. Maybe the FIRST time it happened it was an accident, but we've been doing this long enough to realize the backlash. The ONLY explanation is they are trying to get people arrested. Maybe they are trying to expose the violence in the system, but I've got news for you- if we're out there demonstrating or participating in direct actions- we already recognize the violence in the system. You're at the wrong place. Go to a fucking pro football game or something. Show THOSE people how violent the cops can get.

3) Old forms of insurrection will NOT work in the 'New World Order.' The system is too large and strong to fight with old techniques. It has adapted and so should we. Previous tactics of direct confrontation and violence will be short-lived. It's time to get creative. Or at least organized...

4) A bunch of non-violent liberals holding hands in a park and getting arrested was planned. Everyone involved knew what they were in for. They had agreed on it early on. That is different than going out and getting people arrested against their will. That is different than giving names and information to the cops.

5) Fuck you for sabotaging organized resistance against the state. Autonomous actions are great and should be done frequently, but when your autonomous actions are done with complete disregard for other people resisting oppression, then you're no better than any other sociopathic capitalist making money off of slavery.

6) Fuck you again just because I want to say fuck you and there's nothing you can do about it because I'm an anarchist and I do what I want regardless of how it affects other people. I just want to say... hahahaha... MIC CHECK! MIC CHECK! hahaha... bear with me here... hahahah... These pretzels are making me thirsty... hahaha... FREEDOM OF SPEECH! FREEDOM OF SPEECH! YOU'RE A SNITCH! YOU'RE A SNITCH! YOU'RE A SNITCH! ANYONE OVER 30 IS A FUCKING SPINELESS LIBERAL SNITCH!

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

i really must agree with comrade d. His critiques are pointed and timely.

These infantile anarchists really don't get it. Time and time again they engage in actions that alienate the masses that we need to be trying to organize with. 

They do not consider how their actions will affect any chances at succesfully taking over the state. We must work to organize those around us (since we have the revolutionary knowledge) and then take the power from the capitalists and the state. 

Rather than festishizing conflicts with police many anarchists should consider doing an intense study of theorists like lenin and stalin. An intentional engagement with their works will certainly help to give a clearer understanding of what we as revolutionaries should do to lead things on to victory. 

Kasama Project has a lot of good articles on it for those of you who are interested and some articles from the more mature revolutionaries in Atlanta can be found there as well.

good work comrade d, we really should critque infantile reactionary behavior whenever it shows itself in our revolutionary organizations.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

9:22

D

Seriously shut the fuck up already. That rape analogy is not fucking ok. What the fuck is wrong with you?

PStop sittin on your ass talking about not participating in anything and lodging all this ridiculous fucking critiques based on logic that has already been pointed out well in another posts. But you say so many fuckedthis and incorrect things per post it's hard to attack it all. 

So shut the fuck up already your not doing anyone any good.

And again what the fuck with that rape comment. Not fucking ok.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

1. Snitch-outing is not snitching.

2. Participants do not "get people thrown in jail"-- The cops throw people in jail. 

3. To challenge society and the ruling order is to come into conflict with their keepers. This means coming into conflict with ourselves, our friends, bankers, people we don't know, and - most immediately and most obviously - cops. Fighting cops should not be our sole tactic, just as smashing windows should not be our sole tactic. But no one's suggesting that.

Actions take on "revolutionary" or "conflictual" (whatever the fuck) meaning when they pose a challenge to the fucked up world that exists. If the state doesn't give a fuck about what people are doing, then they're not coming into conflict with the state. I'm not suggesting folks should seek accuracy or legitimacy for our actions in the presence of the police-- but christ, this war is not a war against nothing (nothing, that is, in a literal sense, and not that other kind). There are those who wish to perpetuate this world and there are those who wish to destroy it.

3. The problem with ageism is not limited to how old one actually is, but rather the fact that you (ageist) are discounting ideas and actions by associating them with "children." The anecdotes that have been provided thus far about age are not, I think, to say "We're legitimate because we're x years old!," but rather "Look, anybody of different ages can have similar or different ideas." In other words, stop shitting on young people because it's fucked up.

4. No one (yet) is arguing against organization in its entirety.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

oh look this shit again.

arguing with liberals over indymedia literally isnt worth it.

1) populism - fuck that. quality over quantity. Anarchist assemblies might be "small" but lets be honest even if people aren't coming out to aseemblies there is a much larger anarchist pull in atlanta.

so many of you depend on projects run by anarchists to even get your shit down. 

2) the AGA doesnt represent the level of revolt. it doesnt represent shit. its a space to get face to face with people and find others to work on projects with. its a space to get different crews to come together to debate, coordinate, etc. so its awesome even if the numbers are "low" still thought about 8x as many people there as the OA GAs

the rest of this i just dont care but seriously with the rape analogy fuck you that is beyond offensive you sack of shit. blaming people resisting for the state repressing ppl. plenty of liberal events have arrests. if i recall they seem to even wilingly submit to it so fuck you. coercing people to hold hands and get arrested in a god damn park is stupid. if someone is arrested because the pigs dont want people fucking up a bougie part of town whatever. in most cases arrests are made before shit gets broken anyways. 

again you hate us. we dont give a fuck. you tell us grow up. fuck that. 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Did someone say "union of egoists"?

Hell yeah Stirner!!!

Scocietyyyyyyy!!!

Also agree the agist shit is bull shit. I'm probably the same age if not older than some of these hippies crying about anarchists yet I'd still prefer an insurrection.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

6:19pm

Not my problem.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Also, you're making assumptions. I don't blame anarchists for the system growing. I blame the actions that disrupt organization of revolt for allowing the system to grow.

The ONLY way we can dismantle this system and establish a free society is by organization. Every time organization begins to take place, a small group of "anarchists" (nihilists) makes it their intention to disrupt and destroy it, usually by doing actions that they KNOW will attract the police and incite arrests. Also, the folks doing those actions are suspiciously absent by the time the cops show up. How can that be ANYTHING but suspect activity?

So here's a real question:

Why do you spend so much time attending revolutionary actions and demonstrations instead of going to football games or some other product of a capitalist society? If you want to incite a riot or fuck up some bourgeois assholes that's a MUCH better place to start than going to a small community activist demonstration.

Unless your intention is to destroy any chances the people have at fighting back at the system....

 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Like I've said before, and I'll say again- while you folks are busy fucking up an organized revolt with your 'anarchy' the system grows stronger and more oppressive every day.

Also like I've said before, you're a fucking hypocrite. I am referring to the infamous OA GA where the 'anarchists' of Atlanta pointed out several members of the General Assembly and said that not only were they all snitches, but they're also not to be trusted because they're "over 30." Ageism? Oh no, it's REVERSE ageism because it's directed at the 'liberal' crowd, so it's ok.

Speaking of hypocrites- whatever happened to 'snitches get ditches?" I can only think of one person in the whole occupy movement that has given names and incriminating information to the police (and that person was NOT one of the 'liberal' crowd.) That person has been welcomed at every anarchist GA since.

Oh wait, I get it- the only people who get attacked by 'intellectual' anarchists are the people who DARE to criticize your ideology.

BTW- I don't give a FUCK how old you are. If you're acting like a child, then you're a fucking child. Some of the most intelligent and productive folks I've met are a lot younger than me. In contrast, some of the most immature people I've met have been a lot older than me. It's just a coincidence that most of the "@'s" in Atlanta that tend to get folks thrown in jail happen to be young. 

I ask again- what's the difference between someone who gives names to the police and someone who consistently gets people thrown in jail because of their actions? The end result is the same- innocent people are put in cages. What does it matter if the cause is someone breaking a window or giving a name? You should know better by now (but apparently you don't.) You hold on to some fucked up ideology that says "I don't care about anyone but myself." You're defending sociopathic behavior. You're no better than a rapist who takes someone by force with complete disregard to how it affects their lives. For the sake of a moment of your OWN pleasure, you are getting other people thrown in jail.

How can you defend that????

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Do we want to LIVE anarchy, or do we want to bring down an oppressive system that seeks to enslave every single one of us?

What an vapid, rhetorical statement that is. Its worthy of being a bumper sticker. How in the name of the lord can you concieve of resisting slavery by doing other than living freely?

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

And before you even say it: I'm not claiming to be more intelligent than everyone. I understand that I only have a small glimpse of the world and that I will be much smarter in ten years, hell in five years. I understand that perspective changes people and that's OK. I understand that you can learn something from everyone - my point was to attack the line of thinking that says the opposite of that. To attack the idea that you can't learn from young people, that children are illegitimate. 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

1) The group of people I presume you are talking about - who enage in permanent conflict with authority - are actually not among the "live" anarchy crowd. In any gathering, it is those folks who are critical of the "pre-figurative politics", the subculturalism, the "building a new world in the shell of the old" activism. They are some of the ones at the fore of the move to materially confront power and to create an ungovernable society rather than engage in self-referential projects. (Not tryin to be be too critical of other anarchists here at all.)

2) There is no "machine." Anarchists should not concieve of their project as one of trying to "overthrow the government/ruling class." We are trying to create communes of uncontrollables - unions of egoists, if you will - who refuse to be dominated and who have the means to materially attack and destabalize authority whenever it appears. We are trying to undermine the basis for the entire social order.

3) The state needs no justification for the unlimited escalation of control because the predominant mode of governance is the unending "state of emergency" invoked on September 12th, 2001. The capitol police of Atlanta were just given automatic rifles for the first time ever with absolutely no justification other than "this is just the world we live in." Let's remember that it was in the name of preserving health and well-being that the mayors around the country evicted the occupations. For instance, Mayor Reed insisted that the hip hop festival and the use of generators was just too be of a health liability. Power rarely uses the language of repression these days; it prefers the language of "crisis management", "public safety" or the general cohesion of society. I know you are in need of intellectual shortcuts to make your point, but you don't get to blame repression on revolt. If anything, the only safety we have ever had has come from how unpredictable we have been.

4) I'm sick of this fucking ageist shit. You are fucking bullshit for constantly invoking the language of age. Anyone else who feels justified to discredit of deligitimize a young person because they are young should swallow a fucking bullet immediately. Joan of Arc was a teenager. Although the so-called "group" of people you are referring to includes some adults, I refuse to enter into your fucked up discourse about age and it's supposed reference to mental faculties. I know myself to be more intelligent and more experienced than most adults I have ever met when it comes to many things. Although I recognize my lack of experience in some areas, I refuse to accept that experience comes passively as if by osmosis.

5) Cops never come to the Anarchist assemblies. Furthermore, it's interesting that 40 people show up to the anarchist assemblies when Occupy Atlanta - the so-called "social movement" - can't even get 5 people. Anarchists have been moving forward in a diverse way for a long time and we won't be slowed down by the bullshit populism of ass holes like you.

6) We know exaclty what we're doing. When we see manipulation, domination, control, authority, restriction, politics - we destabilize it. Yes, that means coming into verbal conflict with authoritarian leftist sects and union organizers who expect to represent everyone and act as mediators of popular rage. One year ago, during Occupy, everyone was doing that! You'd be surprised to learn that many of the beautiful things that have happened since the fall of the soviet union has happened because people like anarchists made sure to call out authoritarianism where it exists in order to make space for creative free engagement on a large scale. There is no way to justify tricking 200 kids to take over a building so that you can have you picture taken with the president and get your private meeting with him. That's why everyone left! Not because they were convinced by the anarchists but because they were castrated from their own power by leftist opportunists!

7) No one thinks you can "take down the system with 40 people." No one. The point isn't to have a small group engage in an escalated clash with the State, though. The point is to spread practices of revolt and disobedience as deep into society as possible. You'd be surprised by how far we have come in that regard in the last year. Anyone who has been around since before Occupy should recognize that demonstrations were fucking bullshit. 15 people marching on the sidewalk moaning to some boring chant. Now, every demo takes the street. 

I am sick of this liberal bullshit. I'm sick of arguing with liberals and leftists. We hate you, you hate us. Why don't you fucking join a lobbying firm already like you are gonna do in 10 years anyway?

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

I guess it really boils down to a choice that each of us makes every time we go out to a political demo/action:

Do we want to LIVE anarchy, or do we want to bring down an oppressive system that seeks to enslave every single one of us?

There was a time in my life when I wanted to live anarchy. Now I am focusing on bringing down the machine.

The actions that many "@'s" in Atlanta take part in do nothing to dismantle the machine. In fact, most of what these kids do strengthens and emboldens them. They justify more camera surveillance, give media more ammunition to hire more violent cops, and make ALL of us look like fools and children.

If anarchists in Atlanta truly care about establishing a more horizontal society, it's up to US to tell these children that what they're doing is fucking us.

And before you get on your high horse and assume that I'm talking about ALL anarchists, let me jump the gun and tell you I'm not. I know lots of anarchists who do a lot of good. There are only about a half dozen children (and that's exactly what they are- children) who would prefer to act out and throw a tantrum than focus their energy on actually dismantling the system and establishing a new society.

But like I said, I'm done banging my head against a wall. At your next anarchist assembly or anti-police march, when you sit there wondering why there are only 40 of you (and 3 times as many cops surrounding you) remember how you treat people who come out with an interest in changing things for the better.

You attack them. You call them names. You act with absolutely no consideration for how your actions are going to affect the people around you.

And you cannot take down the system with only 40 people.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

10:03 here

Yea, I'm a liberal, and everything I say is ALWAYS right 100% of the time. ALWAYS. You got me pegged. It's all about ME always and I'm ALWAYS right. You're a fucking genius for calling me out on it.

Nevermind that the dumb shit the 'anarchists' pulled at the fed march got two people arrested and fucked up the entire strategy of the march. Nevermind that we only got to accomplish half of what we had planned. Nevermind that this happened nearly EVERY FUCKING TIME we had a planned march or action. Never mind that it CONTINUES TO HAPPEN EVERY FUCKING TIME the same 4 or 5 people show up, and nevermind that you're TOO FUCKING STUPID to recognize that you're FUCKING UP THE WRONG STRATEGY.

But whatever. I'm completely done with the 'activist scene' here in Atlanta. You are your own worst enemy because you can't generate numbers, you can't devise a strategy because your own comrades intentionally fuck it up.

You're fucked and you are fucking us worse than the banks.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Here's the deal:

anarchists do plan sometimes. Some anarchists even strategize. Late-night talks, study groups. discussion, meetings, group reflection (and publication!), long-term initiative. all of this happens sometimes.

The bottom line is that some of us don't want protests, we want vortexes! We don't want to affirm alternatives, we want to negate existing social relations in such a way that allows for fluid acts of individual and group self-creation.

If sometimes people commit acts of vandalism, it's rarely the monetary count that is being considered: it's the renegotiation of space and how we relate to it! If someone drinks an adminstrators coffee, it's not because that $3 reappropriation is gonna make him take us "seriously", it's because it signifies disrespect and a lack of fear.

Occupations are particularly important for anarchists because they subtract us from social roles, they disrupt authoritarian functions, *and* they create these vortexes that allow for the emergence of new relations.

The key, as the piece states, is to creat vortexes that don't close! We have to have the skills  and the momentum for that.

I recommend people study previous movements.

Here is a brief overview analysis of the 2009-2010 student occupation movement in California.

http://anticapitalprojects.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/communiques-from-occ...

 

Keep it coming and up the anti.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Strategey, forethought, planning, even secrecy, are important, depending on the context of whatever it is you're doing. Sometimes people don't think things through enough. It's irresponsible and dangerous to bring chaos to an event and then give pigs an excuse to bring the hammer down on everyone else. Sometimes I think that anarchists talk shit about "over determining" events out of fear that they wouldn't know how to sustain a plan if it actually worked.

But I don't think that's really the issue with most critics. The issue with critics like 10:03 is more nefarious. For example: "If you want to REALLY make some change in an oppressive government, you're going to HAVE to do some strategizing."


You don't give a shit about planning and forethought when you say something like this. You're just manipulating the cry of "tactics!" for your own malevolent, dishonest, opportunism. You stupidly insist that strategizing means your strategey, that planning means the plan you devised, that your idea of "change" is the only game in town. And the most ludicrous thing of all is, when state oppression is at an all time high, how convinced you are that your so-called "strategey" is effective.


Effective for whom? For what purpose?

I can't forgive something so duplicitous.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Can I save EVERYONE some time here?

Liberal:  You have to do things MY way or else!  Me Me Me!!!  There's only one right way to do things and that's MY way!  Anything other than that is just borken windows and spray paint and evil and bad and wrong and poopy.  If you don't do things MY way, you owe ME an appology.

Anarchist: No


There...  conversation over. 
Hope I saved everyone a lot of time.
@s have gotta know - haters gonna hate. 

Keep it up yall!

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

is a liberal.  Don't read.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

BTW- sometimes the 'hiearchy' of a demonstration is there for a reason.

Case in point-

At OA's last big banks march to the Fed Reserve there was a very specific and intentional route planned. The route and reasons for the route were not disclosed to the march due to security concerns, but two people were tasked (by the general assembly/planning groups) to devise a route that would allow for certain questionable actions to take place while providing cover for people willing to do those actions.

During the march, some of the black-clad anarchists decided to lead the march elsewhere and deviate from the route. That led to two arrests.

This is the problem with rash and foolish anarchism. You don't think shit through. There are a lot of people who put a lot of tactical thinking into what we've done. You may perceive it as someone trying to 'control' a group, but sometimes you aren't as smart as you think.

If you want to REALLY make some change in an oppressive government, you're going to HAVE to do some strategizing. Part of strategizing is recognizing that there are some people who possess greater skills at certain things than you do, and sometimes there is a time and place for following others.

Anarchy does not mean chaos. If we're going to dismantle a corrupt and oppressive regime, you're going to have to swallow your foolish pride, accept that you don't know everything, and work together.

I mean, unless the extent of your vision is to break a window or spray paint a wall...

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

some hobbit shit?

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Im glad to see anarchist doing this type of critical engagement. 

It is honest about your politics and explains why you are against the things you are.

Sweet. And that flier seems badass!

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

awesome piece y'all!  

Critical and insightful.  Plus from what I've been hearing from Emory students about the heavy management present for this, it seems that a flyer like the one y'all passed out couldn't have come at a better time.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

thanks for this piece.

 

it's only a learning experience if our minds are receptive.

 

no risk,  no reward.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

I agree with the 3:21 comment.

It's hard to respond to some of D's comments because of all of the hidden assumptions and I think 3:21's comment does a good job unpacking some of that.

Also, I'd like to say that a lot of people are putting their own freedom on the line as well, and not just anarchists. Any time we take risks against authority and exploitation, we are at risk. But if security is a higher priority than revolt than we will never do anything.


I don't think anyone has intentionally put your safety at risk accept for the police. Others have unintentionally put others at risk but in two ways, not one.

1) when people escalate a clash with the police by defending themselves, it does increase the chances of indiscriminate police terror.

2) when people disallow people to defend themselves from police terror under the dogma of nonviolence, they bolster the strength and confidence of the police to hurt us and treat us poorly.

If we can strategically engage in both evasive self-defense and strategic offensive actions with tolerance for temperments that are uncomfortable with physical clash then I think we will be able to really build up.

It's not a violence vs. nonviolence thing at all. It's an inability to figure out how to mix them that destroyed occupy.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

1. There are a lot of people who do not invoke the popular fantasies of movement building. They do not consider themselves part of a movement and they do not attempt to find people to "join" or "follow" a movement. The people I'm talking about -- the people who do not build movements -- intend rather to move.

2. If the difference between those who attempt to build movements and those who simply move is unclear, we can get concrete with it. Those who build movements are looking to "win over" new activists, new marxists, new community organizers, new anarchists (whatever): Sometimes, this means pretending that one's own politics are significantly "less radical" than what one actually believes. Sometimes, this means that organizers of an event keep to themselves a much more of a worked-out idea of what exactly is going to happen than most of the participants. The article mentions that organizers at the Emory occupation "manufactured consent," which (whether it actually happened or not-- I bet it did, because it always fucking does, but I'm not trying to argue about that) also fits in this scheme. This tactic (which is really just lying) masquerades under the label of "meeting the masses where they're at" or the concern of "not alienating the masses."

Faking democracy and faking horizontal organization is fucked up. If you have an idea of what should happen and it's what you really wanna do, just do it. If it's a good idea, other people will be down or they won't be.

3. I am not suggesting that the non-movement builders don't give a fuck about other people-- which in itself is one of the most consistent allegations against anarchists in this city. People who wanna do their own shit are, I think, attempting to be as honest as possible about their desires, both to themselves and to others around them. Maybe other people present don't want to chant a certain chant, march a certain way, smash a certain window-- but that's okay. Relations built on actual affinities (shared desires) seem a whole lot more enjoyable and sustainable than fake ones. Preferring immediate openness and honesty to liberal-fronting and dumbing down rhetoric (for example, saying "We want our departments back!" or "We want better wages!" instead of "The university should be free and horizontally organized by those who want to participate in it" or "Capitalism has got to go") or seems commendable.

4. There's this other nagging allegation, which is that some people A) attend other people's actions and fuck them up, and B) attack other people's ideologies. Both (a) and (b) have been attributed to jealousy and "more radical than thou" attitudes. I honestly don't know where the fuck the idea that anarchists in Atlanta think they're "more radical" than everyone else comes from. Anarchists do what they fucking want-- not because it's necessarily "more radical" than all the other options, but because it's what they want. The value is placed on self-organization and autonomy, not on some conjured up definition of "radical." 

As far as  jealousy goes, it's important to remember that people actually do shit on other people's actions out of resentment and jealousy. People who do things fall under heavy criticism no matter what they do. But I don't think that that's really what's going on here.

People who attend other people's actions and do what they want at them should be commended-- for having the courage to not bow to ideas of "ownership" over actions and for being true to their own selves. Things in Atlanta 2011-2012 would not have popped off in the same way if participants in the march for Troy Davis in September 2011 had stood in silence at the Amnesty International prayer vigil. People believed that something more had to be done, and so they took to the streets.

People who engage with other people's actions on a theoretical level also shouldn't be immediately written off as jealous or hateful. They might be those things, but theoretical engagement benefits everyone by encouraging everyone  to think about what they're doing, what they value, where they're headed. If you disagree, fine. I think it's cool that people wanna talk about what's going on. If you don't like what they say, write something else.

 

/whatevr just do shit

p.s. it's totally possible to use the internet actually anonymously. if you haven't figured out how to do that yet, that's your own problem and you should probably work it out real quick

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Let's be really clear on something else:

 

I have personally heard 'anarchists' giving names and VERY dangerous information to the police. Thankfully they didn't take that person seriously (or we'd have ALL gotten our doors kicked in) but I heard it. I've told several of the anarchists in the area what happened, but apparently they don't consider it a big deal. In fact, several of our area's "anarchists" showed up to confront ME about it. That was after I'd spent a night in jail due to someone being an idiot and making a verbal altercation a physical one (in front of about 20 cops.) I guess only 'nonviolent' anarchists are attacked by the anarchist community here in Atlanta, huh?

I have another question- Is snitch baiting when someone shows up to GA, points out half a dozen people in the crowd, and loudly proclaims "YOU'RE A SNITCH! YOU'RE A SNITCH! YOU'RE A SNITCH!" and leaves? Because I've heard some of our areas prominent 'anarchists' do exactly that. It was also the same person who would show up to the AT&T occupation, yell at the cops for 5 or 10 minutes, then disappear to leave the folks sleeping there to deal with the consequences.

You need to realize that some of the self-professed 'anarchists' in this area have some very serious mental issues. (as evidenced by the conversation that took place here early this morning) and are going to get people put in jail or prison.

Which also brings up an interesting point- is it deplorable to do things that you KNOW will get other people put in jail? We all know that people who give names and information to the police are shit, but what about people who do actions with the INTENTION of getting other people thrown in jail? The end result is the same- our friends/comrades being put in cages. It doesn't matter if it's during an act of vandalism where an innocent person gets blamed or whether it's someone getting into a fight in front of 20 cops. An innocent person is thrown in jail because of the actions of another. It's one thing if it's planned on ahead of time (such as a sit in or blockade) but it's quite another if the people who end up in jail were unwilling and unaware. Should the person resonsible for the action be held accountable in the community?

This is another big reason I don't come out to events anymore. I never know when some 'wildcat' is going to do some dumb shit that's going to bring the police to my front door (again.)

Our activist community in Atlanta is very small. You THINK you are hiding behind some curtain of anonymity when you go out, but you aren't. Most of the cops in the area know who we are. That's not paranoia. That's reality. There is too much surveillance in Atlanta (cameras and cops) for us to remain anonymous at ANY time. There is too much of a police state in this whole COUNTRY for us to remain anonymous. It's selfish and immature to have COMPLETE disregard for the safety and well-being of other activists in the area. Some of us aren't as willing to squat and stay off the grid. Some of us have worked a VERY long time to get into the system to change things from the inside. Fuck you for putting my life and freedom in jeopardy because you want to play 19th century revolutionary.

Let me repeat that:

FUCK YOU FOR PUTTING MY LIFE AND FREEDOM IN JEOPARDY

The only reason the cops haven't taken serious action is because they are waiting on people do really dumb shit. They're not worried about broken windows or spray paint (although actions like that DO give them an idea on who they should focus on.)

I guess I am not coming out because I see a very deliberate effort to destroy any type of organization that forms in the activist scene in Atlanta. Regardless of the motivation (cointelpro, personal investments, mental instability) the effort exists, and much of it is coming from people who claim to be anarchists.

There can be NO revolution without organization. I was hoping the occupation would be settting the groundwork for a massive movement, but many people on the inside made it their goal to destroy any organization that began to form. I see the same rhetoric that I heard in the park and after on this article. It's true, I wasn't there, but surely anyone who has ANY tactical knowledge realizes that in certain situations where negotiations are taking place, the more informative people have a duty to take part in them for the sake of short-term goals contributing to the long-term strategy. It's not that complicated.

I don't know much about the financial or housing crisis. Naturally I would not be the person to sit in on negotiations about foreclosure moratoriums or regulations. I would not throw a temper tantrum because I was not the one who let the talks.

Progress is going to happen VERY SLOW in our society. We don't have the numbers that other revolutions in other countries have. Even if we did, do we REALLY want what's happening in places like Egypt or Somalia to happen here? Egypt overthrew their dictator (hooray) only to have the military take hold of their country. Now they're even worse off than before. Somalia has no specific system of government, but they DO have bands of armed thugs that patrol the streets and rape/shoot at will. Don't believe for a second that we don't have bands of rednecks who aren't willing to do the same here.

Anyway, I got shit to do today.

-d-

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Let's be really clear about something.

In some of the posts below, someone has insinuated that people have been cooperating with the police. People have insinuated that anarchists have called the police "on other activists" and have provided names and information to this state.

This is completely unsubstantiated shit-talking. I have no reason to believe this is true. Anyone who is providing personal information to the state should feel the entire wrath of hell brought down upon them - if it can be conclusively illustrated.

Our lips are sealed.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Dee, 

 

dont be so ideological.  Ppl left occupy for a huge number of reasons. First and foremost, because it ended. The activists involved thought people would stay plugged into their single issue spin off campaigns but they disnt. They nver so. People are more willing to confront misery in general than any particular misery. People understand that its all tied together so they dont want to shoot for the small stuff anymore. This isnt all over. some day in the next year or two there will be something else and itll rule. And you know what, the tension is gonna increase slowly. Only a very specific type of person ha the privlege to believe in mandatory nonviolence and thats why occupy was mostly white and middle class. Next time, it very well may be those populations who didnt occup who fight back in their own way and it wont fit into any particular iseology. We must set the stage for more openings in which we can all be confused by the sophistication of large groups of people coming together to materially confront the things that are holding them back from the life they want.

 

enough with the snitch-jacketing. This whole piece isnt a serailment or attack on anyone. Its an intelligent assesment of recurring power dynamics like we saw in occupy where a small group tries to act as leaders on everyone elses behalf. Uncool.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

I sign my name at the bottom of my posts so I can be held accountable for what I say to other activists.

NOT so some piece of shit fuckface can spread personal information about me.

Spreading personal information about someone in the movement on this site is just as deplorable as giving information to the police.

This is the person you folks call 'comrade.'

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Is nobody else here worried about the poster who is giving pretty specific personal information about users on this site?

 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

People left because you were doing things THEY didn't agree with.

I just had the perseverance to stick around long enough to tell you so.

PS- your schizophrenic posting under my name doesn't do anything to give you more credibility. It just makes you look desperate.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

anon @ 1:59-

I'm not the one with a history of getting other people arrested and giving names to the police, nor have I ever defended someone who has.

But then again, some people just like to pick and choose how they enforce their rules and on whom. Reckless behavior that puts people in jail is ok as long as it's someone in your group of friends doing it, right?

Sure it is.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Don't assume that because someone doesn't want to publicly espouse violence it's because they don't believe in it.

Sometimes it's because they have the tactical knowledge to recognize inevitable failure.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

So I guess I'm not allowed to offer my own opinion on people's ideologies? Especially on an article that directly criticizes work that other groups have been doing? That's somewhat hypocritical don't you think? 

I've been to enough of these events and read enough of these articles to know what's happened or happening. I've not attended any events in a long time because there are certain people that have made my free existence in this area difficult to maintain. Especially if I have no idea what they are going to say next time they're picked up by the cops. I'd rather just steer clear and put in my 2 cents on this page. Yup, I've been chased off by the 'more radical than thou' crowd. It's a shame too, because I was quite dedicated to the movement until my 'comrades' started getting me thrown in jail.

And yea, I had the guts to sign my name at the bottom instead of just being 'anonymous.' I usually do because I realize that no part of the internet (even indymedia) is secure. The only people you are being 'anonymous' from are your peers.

As far as the claims of the movement growing in places like Oakland because of the more violence or property damage- you're wrong. They had 10,000 people participating in direct actions last fall. How many folks have they got working with them now? Maybe I have just been out of the loop, but I haven't heard of ANY occupation getting more than a couple of hundred folks out to an event. (Except for S17, but even that was a shadow of what we had last fall.)

You are also presumptuous to assume that when I criticize a post on this (or any) site that I'm refering to ALL anarchists like we are some sort of homogenous group. Hopefully you, who claim to be anarchists, realize that is not the case. Although at times there do seem to be a few folks who can't seem to break free of groupthinc mentality...

In a way, the occupy movement has turned a lot of folks in general off of activism. Do you REALLY think that's because people trust Barack Obama more than George Bush? Or is it really because people aren't getting militant enough?

But for the sake of progress, what do YOU think is necessary to build a movement? I've spoken with several of the area's "anarchists" who have said they have NO interest in organizing ANY type of movement and are only here to 'fuck shit up.'

Bleh. Whatever. Purist ideologies of ANY sort are toxic to humanity. I'm fucking tired of fighting with people over dumb shit while the state and the people who control it sit back and make a fortune. Cops are getting rougher, the state is getting bigger, more and more cameras are being installed on every street corner and the general population is cheering it on or completely oblivious to it. They're building more prisons, shutting down more schools, pumping more shit into our air and water, and getting more powerful by doing it.

But you want to sit here and attack other activists who are trying to get shit done.

Shame.

 

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

I haven't read this yet but I lol'd at the title. Somebody is looking forward to the Hobbit! lol

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Dee Rock,


What are you talking about? Literally, this is a critical engagement with an event. Not all of it is shit-talking at all. If critique is off limits, something's wrong.


The crowd was excited by the transgression of occupation and turned off by the obvious managerial control inside the space. That's just a fact. You weren't there at all which is why you have very limited perspective on this.

 

Furthermore, everything hasn't caught on right? In Europe, in South America, in Africa, in Canada, the movements that catch on and spread are the ones that provide for material well-being while showing succesfful resistance to repression. Sometimes, you literally must fight the police. Occupy refused to do that so its participation waned. In Oakland, Seattle, New York, London, Barcelona, Madrid, Athens, Montreal, Los Angeles, Cairo, Santiago and everywhere else they defend themselves...the movement grows.

Break out of your nonviolent dogma and ideology and look to the facts please.


Nothing in this post suggests that breaking windows and doing graffiti is what a revolution is. I think your mechanistic world-view is unable to respond outside of stereotypes.

The bottom line is that negotiation with the president and the manipulation of crowd dynamics turned everyone off so they all left. It was clear as day that a few people did whatever they could to forcibly represent the entire group. That shit won't fly. And it didn't.


Anarchists always participate whenever there are social tensions. Isn't that obvious? We are a part of many movements and we are very active. Maybe that's why you read about us so often to troll the posts.

Don't presume to know the age of the participants. You aren't even that old, dude.

I personally am friends with dozens of anarchists between the ages of 16 and 65. Don't try to play good anarchist/bad anarchist bullshit - leave that to the police and FBI.

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Sometimes I wonder if the people who claim they are being 'oppressed' by other activists are just jealous because they're not getting as much shit done.

Regardless of your opinions of the PERSONALITIES of some of the more prevalent faces of last years occupation, they WERE the people who got shit done (and were also attacked the most for it.)

It sounds like that is the basic premise of this article as well. Jealous and immature comments aimed at the people who organized the event. This happens EVERY TIME there is a big protest in Atlanta. This happened at the F&F action, it happened in the park, it happened at the Emory action, it happened at the Trayvon Martin rally, it happened at the police brutality march last month.

It would be interesting to see someone address this point of view in real-time instead of writing several drafts of what seems like an english term paper.

Become a fucking human. You're not in school writing this shit for your creative writing class. Although you write eloquently, your vocabulary doesn't impress me because your ideology is shit.

That is why your anarchist assemblies always have the same 40 or 50 people. That is why your black bloc marches are always so small that you can't get anything accomplished. Your tactics suck. If you people would get out of your fucking echo chambers and listen to someone else's points of view, you might realize that you're no better than the Fox News zombies who stay glued to their corporate-run media outlets all day long.

It hasn't worked. It isn't working. It won't work. How many more times do you have to fuck shit up before you realize that?

-d-

Re: Not Quite-There and Back Again: Some Thoughts on the Formerly Occupied Emory Administration Building

Did you ever think that the romantic revolt you imagine didn't happen because people are smart enough to realize it won't work?

A group of 'anarchists' in our community seem to have this grandiose idea of what revolution looks like- broken windows, spray paint, and fighting with the cops.

That won't work. It never has and it never will. Simply due to one basic fundamental idea:

The police outnumber, outorganize, and outgun us.

If things had turned ugly and physical, it would have resulted in students getting sprayed, beaten, and arrested.

And what would it have accomplished? Probably would have gotten more headlines, but instead of 200 people who left feeling like they'd accomplished SOMETHING and willing to return to the next even, it would have ended with a hundred people in jail, with criminal records. The police would have had a lesson in how to deal with dissent and how to approach it next time, the media would have MORE ammunition to paint anarchists as a bunch of idiots, and we'd have less support than before.

This is EXACTLY what happened with the occupy movement last year. Every time shit got violent/vandalistic more and more people left and cops got more and more support to repress us. Why don't you ever fucking learn that is NOT how you build a movement?

Your point of view that everyone who doesn't resort to vandalism or violence is stupid is really selfish and counterproductive.

Did you ever think that the reason that the older anarchists don't do that is because we recognize that violence and vandalism accomplishes NOTHING except a moment of joy, but hurts ALL OF US in the long term?

Unless, of course, your intention is to expand the control of the government and legitimize their increasing violent oppression...

-d-